How would you like to pay taxes at the same rate Spanish citizens do? Bottom earners, those who earn $33,836 US dollars or less before allowances pay a tax rate of 24%. Top earners, and it only takes $86,698 US dollars before allowance to qualify as a top earner, pay taxes at a rate of 43%.

This means that the poorest people in Spain contributed almost a quarter of their income so you would pay nothing for your five week hospital stay. That seems fair to me.

Health care spending is not necessarily bad. To a large degree, America spends money on
healthcare because it is a wealthy nation and chooses to do so. Economists consider healthcare a “normal good,” meaning that spending is positively correlated with income.

On the other hand, the WHO report ranks the United States number one in the
world in responsiveness to patients’ needs in choice of provider, dignity, autonomy, timely
care, and confidentiality.

When you compare the outcomes for specific diseases, the United States clearly outperforms
the rest of the world. Whether the disease is cancer, pneumonia, heart disease, or AIDS, the chances of a patient surviving are far higher in the United States than in other countries.
For example, according to a study published in the British medical journal The Lancet, the United States is at the top of the charts when it comes to surviving cancer.

As for Spain, lists vary from region to region but are a significant problem everywhere. On average, Spaniards wait 65 days to see a specialist, and in some regions the wait can be much longer. For instance, the wait for a specialist in the Canary Islands is 140 days. Even on the mainland, in Galacia, the wait can be as long as 81 days. For some specialties the problem is far worse, with a national average of 71 days for a gynecologist and 81 days for a neurologist. Waits for specific procedures are also lengthy. (OECD)

Most of the support for a European system is essentially a sham. When you look overall at the systems, they are by far not superior, and not even close to the many amenities that we enjoy. That’s not saying that we don’t need to reform. However, the case needs to be made for a free market, not more regulation and bureaucracy. Just look at the problems that we have with small medical issues like H1N1, don’t think that regulations have anything to do with it? I encourage you to research a bit.

There is already too much government involvement, and it looks like it stands to get worse.

If anyone wants a bigger role for govt in their lives, why not spare the rest of us and go to whatever little socialist heavan you can find. Why are you people so adamant in jacking up this great country for the rest of us?

G-d, get a life!!

Since “how much free stuff can I get” is your barometer for choosing your living quarters I recommend that you consider Spain.

As for waiting 65 days to see a specialist or whatever, I have a sis that lives in a socialized medicine country and she assures me that if it’s an emergency, ever, there is no wait. If it can wait, you might wait 65 days but who cares when you know that if someone needs the care more urgently than you do, they will get it.

Wake up, people. We’ve been scammed so long and we can’t wait any longer to fix this corrupt, ineffective medical system.

And all this “America is the greatest country on earth” rhetoric is bullshit that is hand-fed to you from a young age by your state education. On an international level, America is actually one of the least desirable places to live on Earth at the moment. We have an incredibly low standard of health and living compared to most western AND eastern countries. We do pay quite a fair amount of taxes that we see relatively little for. Our health care is shit, our public education is shit, our cities are filthy and we generally lack effective public transportation.

Socialism is not a dirty word, its a system of government that actually provides services to the people. The only reason any of you are oppsed to “socialism” is because of archaic cold-war propogranda that is still accepted within American education for some reason. Our governement now is corrupt as fuck anyway, and having state funded health care wouldnt change that one bit.

You are all just a bunch of hypocrites. If you had the same health care system as England or Japan for one week and it was taken away, you would all be screaming for it. Especially if you were seriously ill. And if any of your loved ones have been seriously ill, so would they.

open your minds.

As one of Einstein’s most oft-quoted bits of genius reminds us, doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results, is insanity.

In his determined efforts to persuade a resistant public, President Obama has offered exaggerated horror stories about our own healthcare system. He has cited phantom doctors amputating healthy limbs for profit, doctors unnecessarily removing children’s tonsils, as well as a few sordid stories about the failure of health insurance companies to deliver on their promises. But turning doctors into greedy villains and insurance companies into monsters has proved a bit difficult, since more than 80% of Americans consistently report satisfaction with both.

It’s much easier to find horror stories from the medical delivery systems being touted by Democrats as the far warmer and fuzzier “options.” These oft-cited models include Canada, Great Britain, Australia, Japan, and New Zealand. Amy Ridenour and Ryan Balis of the National Center for Public Policy Research highlighted one hundred individual nightmares rendered by these failing healthcare systems in their book, Shattered Lives.

Babies born at home, in hospital linen closets, and in parking lots without medical assistance due to bed shortages occurs in the highly touted British system. A full six percent of Britons have engaged in do-it-yourself dentistry, including tooth extractions, due to the dentist shortage. A 54-year-old smoker was refused surgery for accidental multiple fractures to his ankle because doctors said he wouldn’t have as high a recovery rate as a non-smoker. British citizens are routinely denied expensive cancer-fighting drugs because they’re the wrong age or live in the wrong district. As if these horrors weren’t bad enough, the medical care denials are dictated by a sort of “death panel” coined by Orwellian bureaucrats to spell NICE (National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence).

The elephant in the room with these touted healthcare models, of course, is the size of population served. None of the countries studied by Ridenour and Balis comes even close to America’s 300-million-plus population. The largest of these national healthcare systems is the United Kingdom, with a little less than 62 million people served. This is the rough equivalent of the combined population of California and Texas alone. Canada has just under 34 million citizens, which is nearly 3 million less than the single state of California.

Democrats tout Medicare as the test model, but Medicare is on a financial collision course with reality. The Massachusetts model, used by Mitt Romney to boost his presidential bid, is taking the state under water so fast that the Red Cross should send the citizenry life preservers. The Democrats are trying to take an already failing business model from mom-and-pop-small-town-corner-size to national mega-franchise overnight, and they seem not to even see the nitwit nature of that.

If anything positive can be said about the countries now experiencing the disasters and “shattered lives” rendered by full-tilt, single-payer healthcare delivery models, it is that they didn’t know any better when they started down this road. There weren’t clear failures marking every turn.

But the United States has no such excuse. Democrats are on a hell-bent tear to take American taxpayers straight off the proverbial cliff in their purely insane insistence to follow a path strewn with catastrophe. Why on earth would they expect a better result, especially when they have hundreds of millions more people to please?

Insanity. It’s just pure insanity.

Perhaps instead of sending all those don’t-do-it petitions to the folks in charge up there in D.C., we ought to try shipping them straitjackets and Valium. That might help them get a better handle on what we think of their national healthcare schemes.

Want a real fix? Two things in less than fifty pages: tort reform and a national competitive market for insurers. I think I’ll run for President.

Others observed that many young people opt not to buy insurance because they feel they don’t need it. And there are also those living way above the poverty level who just don’t want to spend money on health insurance. So you net out all those folks, and you have about 15 million — or 5% of the population — without health insurance.

This is the point where the debate got murky. Somehow the Obama coalition (including major media) attempted to convince the American people that not having health insurance meant not having access to health care. But everyone has access to the emergency room and emergency medical service, even folks who are here illegally. More than 7,000 clinics all over the country provide health care to the uninsured. These uninsured are then charged according to their ability to pay. Hospitals, drug companies, and local governments also provide indigent care.

Some asked, is the level of medical care for indigents comparable to the care members of Congress enjoy at taxpayer expense? Probably not, but it’s still better than what regular folks get in Afghanistan, Somalia, China, or Russia. And it can be even better than the care provided in places like Britain and Canada — “free countries” with socialized health care. Currently in Canada, the average waiting time between the first visit to the physician’s office and treatment is over 18 weeks! For many reasons, the American health care system is just about as good as it gets. But that may not be true for long.

Should we spend 83 to 130 billion dollars a year and allow the government to take over 16% of our economy to provide what the supposedly deprived population already has? Remember, the President promised to make this change without adding one dime to the deficit!

The US started down the socialized medicine path in 1967 by spending $2.7 billion on Medicare for roughly 7% of the US population. At the time, that expenditure was 1.7% of the total federal budget, or about $180 per person annually. Today, Medicare provides coverage for 15% of the population by spending 430 billion. That represents 10% of the total federal budget, or about $10,000 per person annually, which is almost twice the 1967 rate (adjusted for inflation). Historically, the government doesn’t have a good track record on programs and spending, as you can see by its exponential growth.

Do we really need to spend billions more on a program that will, according to a recent Congressional Budget Office study, cover only about 10 million of the 30 million who are not insured? All this spending and fuss, and the government can’t cover even one third of their target.

In 1961, Ronald Reagan gave a speech warning that socializing medicine was the quickest way to political socialism. He was dead-on in that observation.

The ObamaCare supporter should be asked the following questions:

1) Why is socialized medicine being “sold” as a way to make health care affordable without addressing the crippling costs of medical malpractice insurance?

2) Why is tort reform not a major part of any of these bills?

3) If coverage does not include illegal aliens, why are providers not allowed to ask proof of citizenship from the patient?

4) How does a public plan promote competition? There are over 3,000 health insurance providers today. When the government whittles this number down to one — itself — how is that competitive?

5) How can you provide health care to another 30 million folks without a massive increase in medical staff, equipment, pharmaceuticals, and hospitals?

6) How will government increase staff when it has pledged to limit pay and cut revenue to hospitals and doctors? Every other government provider of health care in the world must limit care. How will our system avoid limiting care? Unfortunately, our socialized health care system will have no choice but to limit health care. There will be death panels. Decisions that have historically been made by individuals, families, and their doctors, will now be made by government employees — strangers who assess statistics, medical expediency, and finances rather than ethics, religious principles, and freedom.

So, 7) Will the health care legislation provide federally funded abortions?

8) Why does the Obama administration seek to silence or counterattack every organization and individual that has opposed the plan? Isn’t debate a critical part of democracy?

9) Why is legislation to give Congress three days to read and comprehend what will be a 1000- to 1500-page bill being squashed by the Left? Thirty days is not enough to review a bill of this magnitude. I predict that it will be forced through in record time à la Cap and Trade in the House, where they had less than half a day before the bill came to a vote.

It’s ironic that the same administration that pushed for more comprehensive consumer protection from the banking industry is dead-set against protecting the taxpaying consumer in its haste to get this freedom-destroying legislation passed.

Obama’s health care reform is not about health care — it’s about control. This legislation will destroy what we have and we’ll never be able to regain our current quantity and quality of service. Someone recently said that “just because there isn’t blood in the streets doesn’t mean we’re not in the middle of a revolution.” I’m worried that this is true and most of us don’t realize it. Look up “revolution” in the dictionary and you will find that it includes the term “change.”

I suggest you peel your eyes away from Fox News for a second to actually open your eyes and examine whats going on.

Have you ever even left the United States? Until you do so you have no business commenting on this so called “failure” of other health care systems. Yep, this failure is why Americans are the most fat, unhealthy people on Earth. You don’t need to read “Shattered Lives” to figure that out.

Obama is just another corrupt politician making profit off of lobbyists no doubt. You have to be a moron not to see that healthcare reform is the best thing he has to offer this country though. People like you are just selfish.

Btw, were in debt to the Chinese thanks to the Bush administration that I’m sure you so vehemantly supported. Hypocrite.

This isn’t about

State sponsered education indeed ms. andalusia. Obviously you have no conception of what a truly unique and great thing Americans have going here. The point is that bureacracies have a way of becoming malignant and thereby lethal to the body politic in the long run. “The path to hell is paved with good intentions.” The fact is I do not trust the current crop of political elites to pour pee out of a boot with the instructions written on the bottom. DO you?

I agree with ms. shiver above, “Want a real fix? Two things in less than fifty pages: tort reform and a national competitive market for insurers.”

Nevermind about the rest of America, they’re too stupid and need us and Obama to force them to do it—What a new and novel idea. I’m progressive!

Do you think that people in Sweden enjoy less freedom in America just because they have governments with socialist tendencies? People in Japan? People in Norway? People in Spain? People in France? People in Portugal? People in Canada? I have lived in both a post-USSR satellite country and a Scandanavian country and believe me when I tell you that they enjoy just as much freedom as we do. They live better lives because they are healthier and their standard of living is higher as well. These countries don’t have governments akin to post WW2 USSR, they have socialist LEANINGS that are designed to provide services to people.

YOU are in a fact an artifact of the Cold War: socialism and Lenin’s/Stalin’s interpretations of Marxist ideologies are two different things. You don’t even have to read a book to realize that, just open a dictionary. To you, socialism is a dirty word BECAUSE you think that it is the “seed of a dangerous ideology”.

Unique and great thing?? Exactly what about anything that happens here is unique? Believe me, it’s not. The only thing that is unique is how ridiculous and illogical a lot of American ideology is.

What ideologies are illogical, oh great man of reason?

I also need help on understanding what is wonderful about socialism ideology, so I can tell all my friends!!

Thanks!

“smartass and nothing more”
No, me saying under other circumstances you could have been monica lewinsky is being a smart ass. By responding to your arrogance and calling you on it you got your undies in a knot.

“I guarantee you that the general populace . . .” You have no way of knowing this. What? Low self esteem much.

The countries you mention are definitely on the decline and generally have no inpact on world events. In a generation or two they will be under the thumb of eihter islam or the russians. Take your pick. The two coutries you refer to are interesting only in that you did not name them, and their enjoyment of freedom is/was purchased by American diligence and treasure. If America fails, they lose.

Obviously the product of public school system. If you ever spent more than a two week bus tour of europe right out of high school you would have a clue on how special America is. And if you appreciate their socialist tendancies and freedoms and health systems etc, and i say this only because I believe in the pursuit of life, liberty and happiness, and you seem so unhappy with America, immigrate. You’ll be happy, America will benefit. It’s a win, win. No?

Why, if this country is so awful and you have lived in better places, are you still here? Certainly, from your eloquent discourse provided above, we can all tell you gain nothing by being in the United States. We are all apparently backwards rednecks who are completely uncultured and have added nothing of value to the world.

“Yep, this failure is why Americans are the most fat, unhealthy people on Earth.” I’m so glad you enlightened us. To think all these years I thought it was high caloric intake combined with lack of exercise and temperance that made us fat and unhealthy. Now I know it is healthcare providers and insurance companies. I guess the science of biological processes was thrown out the window.

“On an international level, America is actually one of the least desirable places to live on Earth at the moment.” If this is true, why are millions of people clamoring to immigrate to the United States? The US only has the 25th highest immigration rate out of 180 countries, putting us in the top 15%. This of course is in relative terms. 1,046,539 persons were naturalized into the US in 2008, a record number. This was even during the Bush presidency.

Back to topic. Do we need healthcare reform? Yes. Do we need socialized medicine? No.

What are the biggest health problems afflicting America? Preventable (or as I like to call them, lifestyle) diseases. Lack of personal responsibility. Let’s smoke, drink, do illegal drugs, eat fatty foods, and consume thousands of gallons of soft drinks, and then expect the healthcare system and taxpayers to fix all of our problems.

Current prices charged are based on the highest rates allowable by Medicare. Who sets those rates? Oh yeah, the government. So we are already paying government prices.

andalusia: while you may not be an out and out socialist, maybe a social democrat would be a more likely label, if you will. Remember, Eric Blair (aka george orwell) wrote on how communist society always results in tyranny, though he never acknowledged that socialism degenerates into communistic style tyranny over time. What is so wrong about being an independant individual who doesn’t want the govt to do anything but what it is mandated to by the Constitution?

How come not one of these countries have given up its system? How come not one of the countries with a ‘socialist’ publicly-funded health care system switched back to what we have? Some of these countries have had national/public health systems for decades. Why is that?

A few years ago Taiwan decide to reform its health care system. They examined the health care policies and insurance systems of every major developed country (including the U.S.). Taiwan’s solution? They chose a government-funded single-payer system. Why?

Can you answer that? (Bonus points if you can do it without using ad hominem personal attacks on me, or the president, etc.)

In addition, the Congressional Budget Office has estimated that, in its first ten years, the Baucus bill (which is less extreme than a fully socialized system) would cost over $800 billion. Proposing a system that would result in conditions (high taxes, more agencies, etc.) that most Americans disapprove of, as well as adding more nearly a trillion to the monstrous $10 trillion national debt in order to provide for a new system without “rude” nurses is a real gamble.

Lawrence, establishing programs like a single-payer health system are done so because they are politically popular. If they weren’t, they simply wouldn’t have been enacted. The reason they haven’t, thus far, been tried here is that Americans have, traditionally, opposed more government action in domestic realms than what is deemed necessary. As I have said before, supporting a system of nationalized health care requires higher taxes, more regulations, and more bureaucracies, which Americans have seen as outweighing any potential benefits of a socialized system.

Furthermore, when you create a new, massive welfare program, you create new, massive welfare classes. If we did it here, we would create thousands more bureaucrats and government health workers and millions dependent on the public system, as well as a middle-class stuck in the middle with the tab for it all. Scaling back such a system, even if the program is causing major problems for the society, is highly unlikely since you may, well, piss off the dependent classes of people. And this is something politicians who rely on the dependent class’s vote want to avoid. If we enacted such a program, that would be pretty much all the politicians in Washington.

The reality of healthcare is in other countries is that many many of them is going broke, and they ARE indeed trying to get away from the single payer system. Countries like Spain have numerous elite who hire and pay doctors for the specialized services that they need. Think that the common folk get it? Think again.

You are on to something here Lawrence, with a little more research you will find all the answers, and surprisingly they do not support government run systems. Trust me, why would I want to endorse something that is failing??

Our system is far from a capitalist approach. YOu can also see my post above for more answers.

Great questions!